The Wilson/Davis transcript

The UFO leak of the century (Richard Dolan, 2018)

During January 2018 a document was made public which has been called "The UFO leak of the century." This article discusses that document.

Ross Coulthart and Bryce Zabel, A semi-dramatic reading of the Wilson-Davis document, Stellar Productions, YouTube, duration: 21.52 minutes.

Contents

Introduction
Reddit Summary 2022
Original Transcript 2002
Narrative version of transcript
References

1. Introduction

Since the 1940s, at least, the United States, supported by other Western governments, has been proactively capturing and retrieving UFOs and Alien bodies and, in association with private firms, researching and back-engineering the technology for strategic military and commercial gain. In large part the official US government, from President through to Congress, has been blocked out of oversight of these activities, though individual members of the government and bureaucracy have been selectively included for their own personal gain and/or with associated coercive threats against disclosure. The government and military and commercial authorities and organisations have consistently publically denied the existence of any of these activities, and of the UFO / Alien phenomena in general. The work of UFO researchers and whistleblowers over the years since 1940s, such as journalist George Knapp and Dr. Steven Greer since the 1990s, has revealed much of the truth behind the ongoing coverup and development of, or attempts to develop, advanced Alien technologies. One of the most significant events to confirm the aforementioned activities is documented in the famous Wilson/Davis transcript relating to events which took place in 1997 and the subsequent 2002 interview between Admiral Thomas R. Wilson (b.1946) and astrophysicist Dr. Eric W. Davis. Apparently the meeting was instigated by the private NIDS (National Institute for Discovery Sciences) group, of which Davis was a member, in order to obtain information from the secretive Wilson.

The ultimate origin of the typed transcript remains unclear. Was it produced by Davis based on his memory of the event shortly after it took place, or is it his transcription of a recording? The references therein to "I" regarding Davis reveals his direct involvement in its production and editing. It is also possible that it was the product of RV (remote viewing), a secret technique mentioned in the transcript, whereby an individual third party with specially enhanced psychic abilities can observe a current or past event, usually unbeknownst to the parties involved. This was a process pioneered by Davis's colleague Hal Puthoff. Both were, at the time, members of the high level, secretive and semi-official organsation known as NIDS - the National Institute for Discovery Sciences.

Individuals and groups involved in this matter and referred to below include the following:

Admiral Thomas R. Wilson
Dr Eric W. Davis - astrophysicist
Will Miller - retired naval commander
John Deutch - Presidential aide
Christoper Mellon - Presidential aide
Oke Shannon - nuclear physicist
Edgar Mitchell - Apollo 14 astronaut
Brig. General Jacques Gansler
Hal Puthoff - scientist, NIDS
Kit Green - scientist, NIDS
Colonel Colson - retired
Ingo Swan - remote viewing psychic
Jonathan Axelrod - Jay Stratton, Pentagon
William Perry - Undersecretary of Defence for Research and Engineering
Brig. General M. Ward
Mary Elizabeth Elliott
Dr. Steven Greer - UFO researcher
James Rigney - secured papers from the Edgar Mitchell estate after his death, including the leaked copy of the Wilson/Davis transcript

The following acronyms are used:

AFB - Air Force Base
AFIO - Association of Former Intelligence Officers
ARVs - Alien Reproduction Vehicles
BDM - Washington area defence and intelligence contractor. Acquired by TRW Inc. in 1997 and then by Northrop Grumman in 2002
DIA - Defence Intelligence Agency
DoD - Department of Defence
EWD - Eric W. Davis
JCOS - Joint Chiefs of Staff
LANL - Los Alamos National Lab
NASA - National Aeronautical and Space Administration
NIDS - National Institute for Discovery Sciences
NNSA - National Nuclear Security Agency
NSC - National Security Council
OUSDAT - Office of the Undersecretary of Defence for Acquisition and Technology
RV - remote viewing
SAP - Special Access Program
SAPCO - Special Access Programs Coordination Office
SAPOC - Special Access Program Oversight Committee
SCI - Special Compartmented / Compartmentalised Information
SRG - SAPOC Senior Review Group
TW - Admiral Thomas Wilson
UAP - Unidentified Anomalous Phenomena
UFO - Unidentified Flying Object
USDAT - Undersecretary of Defence for Acquisition and Technology
USG - Undersecretary of Defence
WPAFB - Wright-Patterson Air Force Base

The following is a very brief summary of events:

1997

- April: Dr. Steven Greer, Astronaut Edgar Mitchell and retired Navy Commander Will Mitchell brief three senior Defence personnel at the Pentagon on Aliens and covert UFO crash retrieval and back engineering programs. Those present include Admiral Michael Crawford, General Pat Hughes and, or relevance, Admiral Thomas Mitchell, who was at the time the Intelligence Officer for the Joint Chiefs of Staff and Deputy Director of the Defence Intelligence Agency. After the meeting Wilson and Miller talk privately on the subject for 2 hours.

- May-June: Wilson spends 45 days trying to find out information on the top secret programs run by private corporations with no government oversight. He is denied access and threatened with demotion if he continues.

2002

- Members of NIDS arrange a meeting between Wilson and scientist Eric Davis. A transcript of the meeting is made by Davis. He subsequently distributes it to members of NIDS. It's existence also made known to a select few UFO researchers, though actual copies not distributed.

2018

- January: The transcript is made public, following its discovery amongst the papers of the late Astronaut and NIDS member Edgar Mitchell.

The present article contains the following:

(1) A detailed summary of events surrounding the creation and eventual leaking of the transcript in January 2018 can be found in the following Reddit posting by bmfalbo from 2022 and numerous YouTube videos, some of which are included below.

(2) A copy of the interview transcript. This copy has been slightly edited and reformatted to aid in comprehension of the original notes.

(3) A rewritten, narrative version of the transcript, attempting to replicate the actual interview as near as possible.

Links to the original pdf are also provided. Needless to say, the document has been called a hoax by UFO cynics and government authorities who continue to promote the coverup. The main parties involved in this event - Admiral Wilson and Dr. Davis - have refused to confirm its legitimacy due to concerns over their security clearances and possible repercussions, as in the past individuals have been sacked, demoted and even murdered for revealing, or attempting to reveal, information related to this subject. An additional detailed discussion of the document and its background can be found at the Joe Murgia UFO Joe website page The Wilson/Davis document - My Twenty-three Year Journey - Part 1. Needless to say, the contents of the transcript have been confirmed on numerous fronts, despite their above top secret nature.

"UFO leak of the century" - UFO Reverse Engineering, Theories of Everything, 4 January 2024, YouTube, duration: 20.43 minutes. Interview with Richard Dolan, who suggests Lockheed-Martin was the contractor involved.

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2. Reddit summary 2022

The following is taken from a Reddit posting during 2022 by bmfalbo.

Former Director of the Defense Intelligence Agency (DIA) Admiral Thomas Wilson is denied access to the UFO recovery/retrieval & reverse engineering black budget projects, based on released documents that are currently available for download via congress.gov and is now a part of the official Congressional Record.

I have been a fan of the Chilluminati podcast for some time now. With all the recent [2023] UAP buzz due to the Chinese spy balloon and subsequent unidentifieds being shot down, I have to bring something to everyone's attention that I'm sure you all will find incredibly interesting, related to the UFO/UAP topic called the Wilson-Davis Memo. I promise this is worth your while if you are not already familiar with this subject.

The document is a memorandum that Dr. Eric W. Davis typed up describing his meeting with Admiral Thomas Wilson in 2002, when he was looking into the possible existence of crashed/retrieved UFOs/UAPs in 1997. This document was leaked back in 2019 but is now apart of the official Congressional Record since early 2022 and can be downloaded via congress.gov. The document can be downloaded in its entirety from this congress.gov link and there are 15 pages in total.

The basic summary of the Wilson-Davis Memo is that Admiral Thomas Wilson tells Dr. Eric Davis that in 1997, as Deputy Director of the Defence Intelligence Agency - who in theory has access and oversight over ALL black budget Special Access Programs (SAP) - could not gain access to an SAP that was involved in the retrieval of, and reverse engineering of, UFOs/UAPs.

Frankly, no summary will do this truly justice so I have additional context and a more detailed summary below. First however, for some context, Admiral Thomas Wilson at the time of this meeting in 2002 was freshly retired as the Director of the DIA, and Dr. Davis is a renowned scientist who has worked as an astrophysicist & aerospace engineer for the Department of Defense (DoD), NASA, and as a Pentagon consultant. Seriously, his resume speaks for itself and is provided here. Dr. Eric W. Davis' career resume is posted on his official Baylor University page here.

These documents are alleged to have leaked from Edgar Mitchell’s estate after he passed away in 2016. Mitchell was an Apollo 14 Astronaut and the 6th man to walk on the moon.

Admiral Wilson has denied having ever met Eric Davis or provided him with the information in the memo. He does acknowledge having met with Will Miller (another name brought up in this memo, and who wrote a letter to Dr. Davis that is also included within the documents) at the time that meeting is said to have occurred, however.

Eric Davis, for his part, has stated publicly on multiple occasions that he will not confirm the authenticity of the memo, citing his security clearance. He has never denied its authenticity. In fact, on the YouTube show, "The Basement Office", Dr. Davis in an interview admits these documents leaked from the Edgar Mitchell estate in a non-denial of involvement.

Furthermore, below is an interview conducted just a few weeks ago with the man who did leak these from the Edgar Mitchell estate and how that story went.

Interview with James Rigney, Project Unity, 21 January 2023, YouTube, duration: 14.19 minutes.

A brief summary of that interview: After Mitchell passed away, these documents among 1000s of other docs from his personal collection and archives were nearly just thrown out because the family had no use or care for them but were saved by James Rigney and an unnamed partner with the family's permission.

If that still isn’t enough, here is Christopher Mellon, former Deputy Assistant Secretary of Defense for Intelligence in the Clinton and George W. Bush administrations and later for Security and Information Operations, confirming the authenticity of the notes and that they were indeed authored by Dr. Eric Davis in a post on his own official website. Here is Jay Anderson of the YouTube show “Project Unity” breaking that down:

Chris Mellon confirms Eric Davis authored the Wilson Notes, 25 December 2022, YouTube, duration: 5.09 minutes.

Still not convinced? Here is Oke Shannon (a name brought up several times within the notes), Fmr. Manager, Special Projects, Los Alamos National Lab (LANL). US Navy Veteran, and Nuclear Physicist for the Department of Energy, giving his testimony in an interview with Jay Anderson again on “Project Unity” about the authenticity of the Wilson-Davis Memo and his relationship with both Thomas Wilson and Dr. Eric Davis (please watch this if nothing else!):

Oke Shannon and the Admiral Wilson leaks, Project Unity, 25 September 2022, YouTube, duration: 14.30 minutes.

The notes can be a little hard to follow at times. Below is a detailed summary of the entirety of the Memo and a timeline of events. Of course, this isn't a replacement for the original document and all of the information in this summary comes strictly from what is within the document. Without further ado...

Wilson - Davis Memo: Detailed Summary and Timeline:

Dr. Eric Davis met with Admiral Wilson in 2002. Davis had been trying to find information on a crash retrievals program. He had been advised by Will Miller to talk to Wilson about this. And Oke Shannon and Miller encouraged Wilson to talk to him too (“Tell Eric what you told me”) because he wasn’t interested in fame or publicity and was a trustworthy and respected scientist.

In the meeting with Davis, Admiral Wilson related that in April 1997 he had met with Will Miller, Edgar Mitchell and Steven Greer, who had been searching for information on, and privately discussing, UFOs with government and military officials. [This followed on an invitation during 1995 from Will Miller, as outlined in the letter dated 28 June 1995 and reproduced here.]

Afterward, Wilson and Miller spoke privately. Miller asked about crash retrievals programs, where they might be and who had access to them. Wilson was intrigued because he had heard about US and foreign government encounters, and he spent the next 45 days talking to people and doing a search. He was advised by Secretary of Defense Bill Perry and Major General Marshal Ward, who was the director of special programs, to go through the files, like an index system, of the Office of the Undersecretary of Defense for Acquisition and Technology. They said to look into a special projects record group not belonging to usual SAP, a subset of unacknowledged SAP’s. Paul Kaminski and Michael Kostelnik oversaw these programs. So Wilson had found the group that might run the program he was looking for. He then read the “index abstracts” and found a few programs to look into.

Wilson called seven program managers. Three managers said they weren’t the right program he was looking for, and the other four referred him to the same program run by three people, a security director (former NSA), a program director, and a corporate attorney.

Wilson told Davis that the SAP compartment, code name, and contractor or government agency that oversaw the program were all “core secrets.” He said it was managed by a top 3 defense contractor.

Wilson called the program director three times and spoke with him, the security director, and the corporate attorney. They were surprised and agitated that he was looking for them and confused about what he wanted from them or to know about.

He told them he had read their program record at the OUSDAT special program records group and wanted to know about their crashed UFO program, what their role was and what they had. He also asked if they had heard of an MJ-12 or other code organization related to crashed and recovered craft. They said yes.

They asked Wilson who he had talked to before he called, and they weren’t happy with his answer and who those four program managers were who had referred him to them.

Wilson demanded a formal briefing and tour. He had regulatory oversight as Deputy Director of DIA and Assistant JCOS. They agreed to an in-person meeting.

Wilson flew out to meet the three managers - security director, program director and corporate attorney - at a conference room in their secure vault. They called themselves the “Watch Committee,” or Gatekeepers. They said they formed out of necessity to protect themselves after a near disaster in the past had almost blown their cover. An audit investigation had led to them and they were nearly outed, which was exactly what they were trying to avoid. A back and forth with the investigator and his Pentagon chief over program transparency ensued, money was the original issue but their hiding out became the other issue. They threatened to blow the program’s cover so the managers backed down and let the investigator in to complete his job. The investigator was officially briefed, given a tour, and shown their program.

After that incident, the program managers reached a formal agreement with the Special Access Program Oversight Committee (SAPOC) to prevent that from happening in the future. The agreement established extremely strict criteria for the circumstances under which anyone could get access in the future. The Contractor Committee - the program director, security director and attorney - set the criteria. No US government officials could gain access unless they met those criteria. They refused to tell Wilson what the criteria were.

He was angry because of the implication that they operated without any official oversight or any justification. They let Wilson know the purpose of the meeting was that they were again concerned about exposure and asked for all of his phone, fax and email records to see who he had talked to at the Pentagon and elsewhere.

They refused to give him access. He had sufficient security clearance but not the need to know, so he wasn’t on the “Bigot List,” the list of all people who had been granted access to the program. They wouldn’t accept Wilson’s argument that they fell under his statutory oversight and regulatory authority as Deputy Director of DIA. In any other situation, the Deputy Director has a right to the need to know for all SAPs.

They said that his regulatory and oversight authority was not pertinent to the nature of their program. They showed him the “Bigot List” of individuals who had been read into the program. The list included a lot of contractor employees, mostly scientists, engineers and managers. Wilson didn’t recognize any military personnel.

There was no one from the Clinton administration, and no one from Congress. A few were from the Pentagon - a few from OUSDAT, someone from another department, and someone at the NSC.

The program managers said they weren’t a weapons, intelligence or special ops program.

Wilson asked what they were then.

The attorney and security director said it was OK to brief Wilson and to tell him they were a reverse engineering program for something that had been recovered years before.

Wilson asked if they were reverse engineering Soviet or Chinese technology, but they said they weren’t doing that either.

The program manager said they had a craft they believed could fly (Davis makes an interesting note here about the transmedium nature of the craft being able to “fly” through air, water, space, dimensions).

Wilson asked if it was from overseas and they said no, that it could not possibly be. They said they didn’t know where it was from, although they had some ideas, but knew it was not of this earth and not made by humans.

They were trying to understand and exploit the technology, but the program had been going on for years and years with very slow progress due to lack of collaboration between different people, lack of outside experts, and they were very isolated and had to use their own facilities and only cleared personnel.

The Bigot List contained about 400-800 individuals who had been given access to the program since its beginning, varying over time with funding and personnel changes.

Wilson asked some of the questions he had discussed with Miller, including Roswell craft, bodies and autopsies, the Holloman AFB landing, MJ-12, and the Zamora and Bentwaters cases. They declined to discuss any of those topics.

Wilson threatened to go to SAPOC to complain and gain access to their program, and they said go ahead and do what you have to do.

Wilson was furious because they had defied his ability to be read-in with good logical reasoning. Wilson started to believe Corso was telling the truth about alien hardware in his book The Day After Roswell based on what he had learned in this meeting.

Wilson complained to the SAPOC Senior Review Committee. They sustained the contractor’s access denial. They told him to drop the matter and let it go because he didn’t have purview over their project and it didn’t fall under his oversight.

Wilson argued with them, and the SRG Chief John Deutch said if he didn’t follow their suggestion, he would not be promoted to Director of DIA, he would get early retirement, and he would lose one or two stars.

Wilson was livid because his position was specifically to have oversight over those programs.

Davis asked about the Bigot List again, and Wilson said it contained OUSDAT people, and two on SAPOC. Paul and Mike had been replaced at OUSDAT, Mike by Brigadier General Gansler.

Wilson then said he had talked to Gansler about six months after his meeting with the program managers, and he told him what had happened there.

Gansler said he had been briefed into the program by someone.

Gansler said UFOs are real but alien abductions are not real.

He told Wilson to drop the matter and said he wouldn’t discuss it further.

Wilson confirmed to Davis that he called Miller in June 1997 to confirm that in his search he had positively identified the existence of an MJ-12 organization overseeing UFO crash retrievals programs.

Davis asked Wilson if he’d talk to Hal Puthoff and Kit Green, but Wilson said he preferred not to talk about it again and risk exposure.

Davis said he wouldn’t repeat anything he was told and that he would just use the notes for his own personal research to help ascertain signals and noise in the media and from government sources.

Richard Dolan analyses the Wilson Notes, Richard Dolan Intelligent Disclosure, 9 June 2019, YouTube, duration: minutes.

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3. The Wilson - Davis interview 16 October 2002 (Original transcript)

[page 1 follows ....]

EWD NOTES

Eric Davis Meeting with Adm. Wilson [in Las Vegas.]

Rich says to go to EG&G Special Projects building at Grier and Paradise. "Meet at 10 A.M. - don't be late!!"
10:10 (Adm. late)
Arrives with two Navy officers in uniform - he's in suit - now civilian. In uniform: 1 (full) Lt.; 1 Cmdr.; a petty officer drives car.
Greetings with Adm. Wilson.
We sit in his car in back of EG&G building. Talk until 11:20 A.M. Others departed for building, to attend meeting inside (at 10:10).

TW: Hello! The minute I saw your (EWD) resume, US Uniformed Services ID copy, AF orders and physics paper Rich gave, I knew who you were. Put two and two together, figured you out! Figured who you were!! (Laughs) You don't want to talk about my career or DIA history!!!
EWD: No! Actually not.
TW: I recalled phone call with Oke Shannon in Fall (Aug.?) '99. Big Oke Shannon fan! Go back years in Navy before Oke left for LANL.
TW: Oke talked 2 hours, wanted to convince to talk to me (EWD) about what he told Will Miller ca. June '97 and April '97. Re: Boston Globe Story - L. Kean. Yep, UFO topic - crashed/retrieved UFO craft/bodies, etc. MJ-12 like UFO organization (or cabal).
EWD: What was said?
TW: Confirmed Greer/Miller/Mitchell gave talk in Pentagon Conference room. Adm. Mike Crawford, Gen. Pat Hughes (Hughes his boss) were present (others too.) Date April '97. (Ed Mitchell said 4/9/97.) After group broke up, Miller/Wilson talked (privately) 2 hours on UFOs, MJ-12, Roswell, crashed UFOs/alien bodies, etc. TW intrigued - knew about intelligence on US mil/intell UFO close encounters - and foreign gov't encounters. Seen records. Told Miller.
TW: Yes, Miller asked the question on MJ-12/UFO cabal - crashed UFO. Confirmed he called Miller ca. late June '97 and told that he/Miller was right - there is such an organization in existence.
EWD: What did you tell?

[page 2]

TW: I found it, where I looked, who I talked to but did not name every one - that's it.
EWD: I show Miller letter (to me, EWD) dated 4/25/02 - please evaluate.
TW: (laughs) Didn't tell Miller EVERYTHING! Miller knows what I did in Pentagon Records Group search but no more. Miller can make good educated guess on who (contractors) has alien hardware. Do not pay Miller - sounds hard up to pay for nice Florida home and private beach privilege - (laughs)! Miller can give good advice on which defense companies to look at - that's all he knows. [changes subject]
Oke told all about JA (doesn't trust JA, a liar!). AP-10 group meetings at BDM.

The BDM Corporation, Flying Saucer like craft - Rotary IRH Pulsejet. Source: Myrabo 1983 & Tingley 2020.

References Blum's book. Talked about JA, Blum's book, his (Oke's) role there, who attended, etc. Oke briefed me on whole BDM thing - talked about RV program for 10 min. I know something of this RV. Oke said I (EWD) was team player, would keep mouth shut, no media connections - obey all restrictions - not in government / no clearances, but pedigree excellent - professional/personal references very excellent.

[page 3 - paper clipped letter here]

Dr. Eric W. Davis, CEO Warp Drive Metrics 4849 San Rafael Ave. Las Vegas, NV 89120
Dear Eric,
2190 Overbrook Ave. North Belleair Bluffs, FL 33770 April 25, 2002
I must apologize to you and Hal for not getting back with you sooner. The "fog of war", current business activity, and losing your new e-mail address all contributed to the delay, which I regret.
First, I must ask if you and/or Hal would be interested in meeting Mr. Bob Beckwith in Tallahassee, FL the evening of May 30th. Bob has been invited to meet with the head of the Florida Academy of Sciences and the Director of the High Magnetic Field Laboratory for a round table discussion of his (Mr. Beckwith's) Force Model of the Universe, and his planned experiments in LTT (levitation, teleportation, and time travel), among other şubjects. I believe that the meeting date is now firm, but that will be determined in a conference call Thursday 25 April.
Next, let me respond to a few of your and Hal's previous questions:
I would be willing to assist you and Hal with your ongoing research into UFO crash retrievals and the entities within the government (or outside of it) that are involved in that business, with the following caveats.
First, there must be absolutely NO mention or association of my name with your work or investigation. I have absolutely nothing to gain from such association at this time, and possibly much to lose.
Second, I would charge you only for the actual time I spend in putting together materials, references, or contact lists for you to pursue. I would expect that time to be minimal, since that initial information would not take long to put together (probably less than 8 hours). My standard rate for such work is $180 per straight-time hour.
Third, nothing I would provide you would be classified from a national security perspective. Although I have held a Top Secret (TS) clearance with access to Special

[page 4]

Compartmented Information (SCI), and other "special" clearances for "other" programs, I currently do not work in the classified realm, nor do I hold those clearances.
As I discussed with you, only by means of working on a current classified government contract and having the "need to know", and thus requesting my previous clearances be reinstated by DoD, would I again work in the classified realm. Now, all that said, and pending further discussion with you and Hal on your ultimate objectives for having such information, I could provide the following:
1. Particulars on a "special team" involved (as a secondary mission) with recovering crashed "craft" including, but not limited to, the previously classified
F-117 Stealth Fighter. This team or its successors, its parent sponsoring entity, and its two key officers may provide some of the information that you seek.
2. The name and last location of a senior officer who I believe had first-hand knowledge [of] U.S. government alien reproduction vehicles (ARVS) at Area-51 and associated locations.
3. The name and current location of a retired senior (Flag-rank) officer who I believe was directly involved in government interaction with a significant UFO event on the east coast of the U.S., and I believe has, by virtue of his former leadership position, high military rank, and control of significant military forces, direct knowledge of USG involvement in this business.
4. A list of civilian government contractors who, by virtue of their past and current highly classified work, current capabilities, clearances, specialized personnel, and geographic areas of concern, most likely have current involvement in, and knowledge of, USG work in alien-derived technologies, crashes, landing, and associated events.
If you have interest in any of the above, please let me know.
Finally, I have a request: I am trying to locate a company in Las Vegas, NV which some years ago manufactured a specialized disabling "pepper spray" for the military and law enforcement. The company was called "1Mark, Inc." (2300 W. Sahara Ave. Ste. 500) and I knew its V.P., a Mr. Joe Zucharro. Any help in locating him and/or the company would be appreciated.
Best regards,
Will
Will Miller

[page 5]

TW: Told Oke it's a bad time - time no good to talk to me (EWD) - too busy. Said Oke too difficult to contact anymore - heard he was in and out of hospital - extremely sensitive to stress/heart sick - bad news - tried calling: Linda takes messages but none returned, she doesn't want much on Oke's plate for fear... Didn't say yes or no to request - I would think on it. Three years pass and retiring - left DIA July (2002) - replaced by Adm. Jacoby.
TW: Came to test site special area to wrap up projects (he began in '98) - successor can't be bothered with right now for lack of time and knowledge. Did tour/audit/say goodbye to folks. Trip set up by NNSA (National Nuclear Security Agency) - Rich & Doug - you (EWD) know them - AFIO members - told about how new Las Vegas chapter needed guest speakers for chapter/public venue - raise money/membership, etc. Rich/Doug talked about you (EWD!) - phoned from DC - sent me copies of your NASA papers and other related - wormholes your thing. Sent PACAF orders, US ID, Lockheed slides, some reports I wrote for NASA.
EWD: When?
TW: Oh, Sept., after Labor Day. Rich/Doug told me I should talk to you about DIA careers, discuss history, mission, my career in that, etc. I knew better later when I saw your papers and stats they provided - remembered Oke phone call and what he sent me/what he said about you (EWD).
EWD: What did you do with it?
TW: Had office do background checks. Doug/Rich offered to but wanted my own data to be sure. AFIO vouched - AFIO people/DC people now in Vegas vouched.
TW: Gave deep serious thought - recalled Oke's call in '99. Oke really supported me (EWD) - had good arguments.
EWD: What were they?
TW: I (EWD) wouldn't talk to press, to groups (UFO or other such), no media connections, not talk to Miller or Greer or related folks - no vested interest in publicity/money/fame/notoriety, etc.
EWD: We spent time discussing my background - answered his questions on my AF, NASA and related work/interests, etc. History with AF jobs - what I did.
Education/career choice, etc. No mention of NIDS!! Oke mentioned JA, me, NIDS in '99, but that's all that was said.
TW: Very furious - very angry about Miller (facial expression tense, angry voice)
Violated personal and professional trust - especially among intelligence colleagues/Navy officers. There's Navy camaraderie among officers - brotherhood

[page 6]

Violated that and confidentiality.
EWD: How?
TW: Miller told Greer their conversation
- Who knows whom else he and Greer told.
(EWD note - Miller told Ed Mitchell who only told me in 1999)
TW: Then he talks to Kean and Boston Globe articles came out. Not sure what he told Kean, but articles referenced me (TW) FURIOUS! Got calls from all over.
EWD: What was their nature?
TW: Sarcastic, stupid jokes, stupid comments, comments of surprise and derision (that I would be talking to UFO nuts/nutty UFO groups, etc.)
EW: Who?
TW: Co-workers (flag officers) in Pentagon, lower staff, civilian SES people, people in intel community I work with. Got calls about articles and didn't like it.
TW: I'm taking risk talking to you. But trusts Oke's word and it is good with me.
We should have met Oke together face-to-face but present health problems prevent that too bad! So I'll take risk with you.
TW: Rich & Doug vouch for you. Say your word is good with them. AFIO connection important for trust - you (EWD) know how to be team player.
- Background check clear - no derogatory items found. Korean record good and AF trusts you. I'm running out of time, so let's go with this! If you blow my trust I'll deny meeting you, deny everything said, won't meet with any more people (without clearances) to talk about this topic - too risky because of security violation just by mentioning it - very tightly held info - absurdly closely held subject matter - never seen anything like this program in black programs community.
EWD: Okay then, what happened in April - June '97?
TW: After parting with Miller (week later, he thinks) - I made calls, knocked on a few doors, talked to people - went on for 45 days (thereabouts) on and off.

[page 7]

Suggestion came from Ward (Gen. M. Ward) to go through the records groups files (like an index system) in OUSDAT (Office of the Under Secretary of Defense for Acquisition and Technology). Ran into Bill Perry in May '97 - talked about this quietly - he suggested the same thing.
They told me of a special projects record group not belonging to usual SAP -- a special subset of the unacknowledged/carve-outs/waived programs - not belonging to usual SAP divisions as organized in '94 by Perry himself - set apart from rest but buried/covered by conventional SAPS.
EWD: Who was USDAT?
TW: Uh, was Paul Kaminski - talked to both Paul and Mike Kostelnik (a Brig. General)
EWD: Michael Kostelnik?
TW: In Paul's office (OUSDAT) - Dir. of special programs in OUSDAT (Office of the Under Secretary of Defense for Acquisition, Technology, and Logistics) as organized (re- organized) by Perry in '94.
Mike is also director of SAPCO (Special Access Programs Coordination Office)
Mike is member and executive secretary to SAPOC (Special Access Programs Oversight Committee) in capacity as SAPCO director. Mike is a member of the Senior Review Group.
(TW was Deputy Director DIA/Assistant Joint Chief of Staff J-2 at time; boss was Director DIA Gen. Patrick Hughes)
TW: So found the unusual record group - read the index abstracts.
EWD: Budget info?
TW: No budget info - that is kept in separate records for audit purposes.
A security budget record is copied into a folder for "the program." Talked to Mike who said it was like 2-3 times the program budget, but there were times when it went as high as 6-7 times core budget. Thought it was absurdly high, said Perry wanted investigation on that but was told to drop it.
EWD: Who told him that?
TW: He didn't want to answer my question on that - said I could find out something from Judy Daly (Judith Daly: Assistant Deputy Under Secretary of Defense for Advanced Development, OUSDAT).

[page 8]

TW: She said by phone call that security and other program budget records were being re-vamped and relocated to their own records groups. Security budgets were sometimes cumulative and not annual numbers, easy to see how misunderstanding occurs when comparing to annual program budget figures. 6-7 times could be 2-5 years cumulative total - there have been errors in way security budgets reported. Perry ordered all these issues to be reorganized and straightened out to improve audit transparency.
EWD: Change subject: so what SAP compartment did you find in?
TW: Core secret - won't say.
EWD: Code name?
TW: Again won't say - core secret.
EWD: Who was the project contractor or USG agency that runs program?
TW: An aerospace technology contractor - one of the top ones in US.
EWD: Who?
TW: Core secret - can't tell.
EWD: Defense contractor?
TW: Yes, the best one of them.
EWD: Intelligence too?
TW: In their corporate portfolio.
EWD: Give a hint?
TW: Sorry, no.
EWD: What happened when you found contractor?
TW: I made several calls (end of May '97), first to Paul, Mike & Perry to confirm I had right contractor and program manager to talk to.
EWD: They confirm?
TW: Yes.

[page 9]

EWD: Then?
TW: (End of May '97) Made three calls to the program manager - one of them conference call with security director and corporate attorney.
- Confusion on their part as to why I was looking for them and what I wanted from them or wanted to know about.
- Very testy tone from all of them.
EWD: What do you mean?
TW: They were agitated about my calling - surprised by call.
EWD: What you asked them?
TW: Yes.
EWD: What was that - what words?
TW: I told I read their program record in the OUSDAT special program records group and wanted to know about their crashed UFO program, what their role in that was, what they had, etc. Also asked if they heard of MJ-12 or some such organization code relating to crashed/recovered UFO craft.
EWD: Reaction on phone to that?
TW: Yes! Asked who I talked to before I called them so I told them and they weren't happy with that answer.
EWD: You mean about Perry, Paul, etc.?
TW: Oh, no! I didn't tell them I talked to those guys!
EWD: Whom else you talked to?
TW: There were the other program managers I called.
EWD: You didn't mention that before!
TW: Thought I said something.
EWD: Who were they?
TW: 3 programs who said they weren't what/who I was looking for. 4 programs that referred me back to the present threesome.
EWD: Why the latter?

[page 10]

TW: Because they were part of it - in different compartments, placed in different layers of the compartments pyramid, split up to do different things or parts of it. They're all in same records group, but their connection to each other is not obvious (typical thing but unusual in records).
EWD: What then?
TW: I told threesome I wanted formal briefing, tour, etc. - was exploiting my regulatory authority as Deputy Director DIA/Assistant Joint Chief of Staff J-2- Told them my not being briefed was oversight they needed to correct - I demanded!
TW: They needed to discuss this (his demand) so hung up. Got called 2 days later and they said they don't want to talk on phone and arranged for face-to-face meeting at their facility.
EWD: Did you go?
TW: Yes, ten days later (mid-June or so). Flew out there. Met in their conference room in their secure vault. Three of them show up.
EWD: 3 guys with whom you had telecon?
TW: Yes, same 3 - Security director (NSA-retired, a CI expert), Program director, Corporate attorney. Called themselves "the watch committee," or gate keepers.
EWD: Why that phrase or name?
TW: I asked; they said they were formed out of necessity to protect themselves after a near disaster in the past almost blew their cover - something to do with an agreement that was reached with a couple of Pentagon SESS overseeing SAPS in those days - were vague about when that was.
EWD: What was this?
TW: Let me finish! They said years ago in past an audit investigation led to them, and it wasn't supposed to - nearly outed!
A battle, a nasty back 'n forth between them and the investigator and his Pentagon chief ensued - like a tug of war for program transparency, they told me - money was the issue - their hiding out became the other issue.

[page 11]

Some kind of threat was leveled to blow the lid off them so they backed down and let the investigator in to complete his job
(They work very hard to keep program hidden).
EWD: What happened with that?
TW: He was officially briefed, given tour, shown their program.
EWD: Did they show him a craft? Or hardware they said was "alien" or from a UFO?
TW: Didn't say more about that. Said after that episode a formal agreement was struck with Pentagon people (SAPOC) to prevent this in future - didn't want a repeat. Special criteria were established in agreement: o A special circumstance that must meet rigorous access criteria set by contractor committee. No USG personnel are to gain access unless they met the criteria - to be administered by contractor committee (program director, attorney, security director) irregardless of the tickets and position USG personnel possessed. Literally their way or the highway
EWD: What are criteria?
TW: I asked for that and they refused to give answer. I was mad - implication is now - to me they operate without official oversight or any justification - politically dangerous place to be!
[Threesome concerned with who TW had talked to at Pentagon or elsewhere - by phone/FAX/email - wanted accounting of conversations - concerned about new exposure]. Purpose of meeting was to tell me this.
EWD: What?
TW: That they weren't going to let me in the door.
EWD: Why?
TW: They said my tickets were all confirmed and valid, but I was not on the Bigot List. My tickets alone were not enough
- I didn't meet the special criteria so need to know authorization was not being granted.
Went back 'n forth with them over these points (primarily with security director & attorney).

[page 12]

TW: Argued more - they wouldn't accept my arguments that they fell under my statutory oversight and regulatory authority as Deputy Director DIA - under purview for my right to have need to know (oversight, audit, justification issues, etc., etc.). Regulatory and statutory authority as Deputy Director DIA not relevant or pertinent to nature of their program! Then they pulled out their bigot list to convince me otherwise - several pages long - dated 1990, updated 1993.
EWD: Who was on it? Recognize names?
TW: That is core secret. Willing to say that most were program employees - names and titles (job titles) - civilians - didn't recognize any military personnel - could be there.
EWD: Any politicians?
TW: No. No White House names, no President! No Congressional people. No Congressional staffers
EWD: Any in Clinton or Bush Sr. Administrations?
TW: No! But handful of names were Pentagon individuals I recognized - few from OUSDAT, one from another department, another at the NSC who is Pentagon SES employee. Program Manager said they were: o Not any weapons program, O Not any intelligence program, o Not any special ops or logistics program, о Doesn't fit these categories.
I asked what they were then. Loud groan from Program Manager. Security Director and attorney say it's okay to say it.
EWD: Say what?
TW: They were a reverse engineering program - Something recovered years ago in the past. Technological hardware was recovered. So I thought they meant recovered Soviet/Chinese, etc. hardware and reverse engineer it - like a missile or intell platform or aircraft - actually came to meeting expecting to find a sensitive foreign collection and reverse engineering operation - thought "UFOs" used as a cover for that - So I said that and they said they weren't that either.

[page 13]

- They had (program manager talking) a craft - an intact craft they believed could fly (space? air? water? dimensions?)
Was it from overseas or not? Said NO! Could not be - not possible!! Why, I asked - where did it come from? Program manager said they didn't know where it was from [they had some ideas on this] - it was technology that was not of this Earth - not made by man - not by human hands. Said were trying to understand and exploit technology; their program was going on for years and years with very slow progress Agonizingly slow with little or no success - painful lack of collaboration to get help from outside community of experts and facilities to assist effort - must remain isolated and use own facilities and cleared personnel - tough environment to work - about 400-800 (Bigot List count) workers varying in number with funding or personnel changes Miller questions asked:
o Roswell - craft/bodies/autopsies
o Holloman AFB Landing
o MJ-12 and leaked docs
o Zamora & Bentwaters, etc.
They were mum - declined to discuss these.
TW threatened to go to SAPOC to complain, gain access to their program.
They said go ahead and do what you must.
I was angry because they defied my authority to be read-in with good logical reason - wouldn't budge. Their tone was very testy/terse throughout conversation
EWD: What was outcome?
TW: Meeting broke up and I returned to Washington.
EWD: What about Corso?
TW: Greer talked about Corso on April 9th
- Miller showed me the book during two-hour private conversation. Didn't have time to read it through. Didn't buy a copy. Didn't bring Corso up at meeting. But comparing Corso story to what I learned at meeting is more than enough to believe Corso told truth about seeing "alien" hardware, etc.
EWD: Did you complain to SAPOC?
TW: Yes - called the subgroup members (Senior Review Group members) to a meeting at Pentagon. Told them what happened at meeting.

[page 14]

They responded that they would sustain the contractor on their access denial. So I ended up arguing with them a while. Broke up in 20 minutes and they would meet me in 2-3 days. Got the call 2 days later (near end of June) and met again with Senior Review Group members.
EWD: When?
TW: Before last week of June ('97). They told me (TW) that they were sustaining the contractor, that I was to immediately drop the matter and let it go - forget about it as I did not have purview over their project, it didn't fall within my oversight, etc. I became very angry - started yelling when should have kept my mouth shut.
EWD: Miller and Greer said you nearly got busted.
TW: Close to that! Told Miller Senior Review Group chairman said if I didn't follow their suggestion that I would not see Director DIA promotion, get early retirement, lose 1 or 2 stars along the way.
Really incredibly angry - upset over this - livid!!! Why such a big deal over this considering the position of trust I have in the Pentagon - I do have relevant regulatory/statutory authority over their program - that's my position!!!
EWD: Is it because funding comes from you or through you? Or Director DIA?
TW: Core secret. Can't answer.
EWD: Back to Bigot List - can you describe type of people?
TW: Corporate types - scientists and technicians - engineers, scientists, managers, etc.
EWD: Any military organizations you recognized?
TW: None - just OUSDAT people - and two on SAPOC - one other Pentagon office. In Dec. '97 Paul was out as USDAT, left gov't - so was Mike K., replaced too.
EWD: By whom?
TW: Jacques Gansler was new USDAT, started Dec. '97 - Mike K. was replaced by Brig. Gen. M. Ward (AF).
EWD: Were Paul K. and Mike K. and Jacques Gansler and Gen. Ward the ones on the Bigot List you recognized?

[page 15]

TW: Won't answer that.
TW: Talked to Gansler in Jan '98 about my June '97 meetings. He was briefed by someone! Surprised me.
EWD: What did he say?
TW: "UFOs are real, so-called 'alien abductions' not real."
EWD: What else?
TW: Told to drop the matter - no more discussion about it. - Gansler said this.
EWD: Willing to talk to Hal Puthoff and Kit Green? (Discussed who they are, and RV program history)
TW: Not familiar with names, heard about RV program in 1990. Maybe/maybe not for Hal - would think about it. No response on Kit Green. Prefers never to talk to anyone else about this again - risks exposure - better to stop talking, cut it off here.
TW: What will you (EWD) do with this?
EWD: Keep for private/personal research - data collection to track down the story and ascertain signal/noise in media and from gov't sources. Will keep mouth shut, etc. etc. Told Wilson about Mary Elizabeth Elliot - TRW story, Ingo's story and 1974 RVer woman who went to WPAFB - trying to make connection.
TW: Feedback - Mary Elliot sounds like real deal based on her info and behavior with attorney (Jeffrey W. Griffith). Probably will only come totally clean on her deathbed 30 years from now. Don't know about Ingo, Axelrod, or RVer woman at WPAFB - doesn't have info on their stories from sources. Asks for Corso material (will send).
EWD: NOTE - TW asks for briefing book on my work (NASA/AFRL) - send other papers if I want to. Given office address in D.C. to mail. Will retire to Midwest and close office in 2003.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------

4. Narrative account of the Wilson/Davis notes

The following is a narrative account of the aforementioned document, rewritten in the first person voice of Eric Davis. It has been typographically expanded to aid in comprehension:

Account by Dr. Eric Davis of a meeting with Admiral Thomas Wilson, 16 October 2002

On 16 October 2002 I arranged to meet with Admiral Thomas Wilson. My friend Rich had told me to go to the EG&G Special Projects building at Grier and Paradise and wait in the car park. "Meet at 10 a.m. and don't be late!!" he said. The Admiral was late, arriving at 10.10 a.m., accompanied by two other Navy officers in uniform. Wilson was dressed in a suit as he was now a civilian, having recently retired from his position as Director of the Defence Intelligence Agency (DIA). The officers in uniform were a full Lieutenant and a Commander. A petty officer drove his car.

I immediately shared greetings with Admiral Wilson and we sat in the car at the back of EG&G building where we talked until 11:20 a.m. Upon arrival at 10.10 a.m. the other officers had departed for the building, in order to attend a meeting inside.

"Hello!" said Wilson. "The minute I saw your resume, a copy of the US Uniformed Services ID, Air Force orders and the physics paper Rich gave me, I knew who you were. I put two and two together and figured you out! Figured out who you were!!"

Wilson laughed.

"You don't want to talk about my career or Defence Intelligence Agency history!!!" he said.

"No! Actually not," I replied.

"I recalled that phone call I had with Oke Shannon back in the Fall (Aug.?) of '99," Wilson said. "I am a big Oke Shannon fan! We go back years in the Navy, before Oke left for Los Alamos National Laboratory. Oke talked for 2 hours, as he wanted to convince me to talk to you about what he told Will Miller in April and June 1997 regarding the Boston Globe story by L. Kean. Yes, the UFO topic - crashed and retrieved UFO craft, Alien bodies, etc., and an MJ-12 like UFO organization, or cabal."

"What was said?" I asked.

"Oke confirmed that in April 1997 Steven Greer, Will Miller and Edgar Mitchell had given a talk in the Pentagon Conference room. Admiral Mike Crawford and my boss General Pat Hughes were present, along with others too. Ed Mitchell later confirmed it was the 4th of April. After the group broke up, Miller and I talked privately for 2 hours on UFOs, MJ-12, Roswell, crashed UFOs and Alien bodies, etc. I was intrigued. I already knew about intelligence on US military and intelligence agency UFO close encounters, and foreign government encounters. I had seen records and I told Miller this. He asked me about a MJ-12 / UFO cabal and their involvement with crashed UFOs. I subsequently called Miller around late June 1997 and told him that he was right - there is such an organization in existence."

"What did you tell him?" I asked.

"That I found it," said Wilson. "I told him where I looked and who I talked to, but I did not name every one. That's it."

I then showed Wilson a letter dated 25 April 2002 from Miller to me, and asked him for his evaluation.

*************

Dr. Eric W. Davis,

CEO Warp Drive Metrics 4849 San Rafael Ave. Las Vegas, NV 89120

Dear Eric,
I must apologize to you and Hal for not getting back with you sooner. The "fog of war", current business activity, and losing your new e-mail address all contributed to the delay, which I regret. First, I must ask if you and/or Hal would be interested in meeting Mr. Bob Beckwith in Tallahassee, FL the evening of May 30th. Bob has been invited to meet with the head of the Florida Academy of Sciences and the Director of the High Magnetic Field Laboratory for a round table discussion of his (Mr. Beckwith's) Force Model of the Universe, and his planned experiments in LTT (levitation, teleportation, and time travel), among other şubjects. I believe that the meeting date is now firm, but that will be determined in a conference call Thursday 25 April.

Next, let me respond to a few of your and Hal's previous questions: I would be willing to assist you and Hal with your ongoing research into UFO crash retrievals and the entities within the government (or outside of it) that are involved in that business, with the following caveats. First, there must be absolutely NO mention or association of my name with your work or investigation. I have absolutely nothing to gain from such association at this time, and possibly much to lose. Second, I would charge you only for the actual time I spend in putting together materials, references, or contact lists for you to pursue. I would expect that time to be minimal, since that initial information would not take long to put together (probably less than 8 hours). My standard rate for such work is $180 per straight-time hour. Third, nothing I would provide you would be classified from a national security perspective. Although I have held a Top Secret (TS) clearance with access to Special Compartmented Information (SCI), and other "special" clearances for "other" programs, I currently do not work in the classified realm, nor do I hold those clearances. As I discussed with you, only by means of working on a current classified government contract and having the "need to know", and thus requesting my previous clearances be reinstated by DoD, would I again work in the classified realm.

Now, all that said, and pending further discussion with you and Hal on your ultimate objectives for having such information, I could provide the following: 1. Particulars on a "special team" involved (as a secondary mission) with recovering crashed "craft" including, but not limited to, the previously classified

F-117 Stealth Fighter. This team or its successors, its parent sponsoring entity, and its two key officers may provide some of the information that you seek. 2. The name and last location of a senior officer who I believe had first-hand knowledge [of] U.S. government alien reproduction vehicles (ARVS) at Area-51 and associated locations. 3. The name and current location of a retired senior (Flag-rank) officer who I believe was directly involved in government interaction with a significant UFO event on the east coast of the U.S., and I believe has, by virtue of his former leadership position, high military rank, and control of significant military forces, direct knowledge of USG involvement in this business. 4. A list of civilian government contractors who, by virtue of their past and current highly classified work, current capabilities, clearances, specialized personnel, and geographic areas of concern, most likely have current involvement in, and knowledge of, USG work in alien-derived technologies, crashes, landing, and associated events.

If you have interest in any of the above, please let me know. Finally, I have a request: I am trying to locate a company in Las Vegas, NV which some years ago manufactured a specialized disabling "pepper spray" for the military and law enforcement. The company was called "1Mark, Inc." (2300 W. Sahara Ave. Ste. 500) and I knew its V.P., a Mr. Joe Zucharro. Any help in locating him and/or the company would be appreciated.
Best regards,
Will

Will Miller, 2190 Overbrook Ave. North Belleair Bluffs, FL 33770

April 25, 2002

************

Wilson read the letter, then laughed.

"I didn't tell Miller EVERYTHING!" he responded. "Miller knows what I did in regards to the Pentagon Records Group search, but no more. Miller can make a good educated guess on who the contractors are who have Alien hardware."

"Don't pay Miller anything for this information," added Wilson with a laugh. "Even if he sounds hard up and needs to pay for his nice Florida home and private beach privilege! Miller can give good advice on which defense companies to look at, but that's all he knows. By the way, Oke told me all about JA, though I don't trust JA, as he is a liar!"

We then talked about AP-10 group meetings at BDM, Howard Blum's book, Out There: Search for Extraterrestrial Intelligence regarding a special meeting at the Pentagon in 1997, JA, and Oke's role at the meeting along with who attended, etc.

"Oke briefed me on the whole BDM thing," said Wilson. "We talked about the remote viewing (RV) program for 10 minutes. I know something of this RV. Oke said that you were a team player, would keep your mouth shut, had no media connections, would obey all restrictions, was not in government and had no clearances, but an excellent pedigree, and your professional and personal references were very excellent. At the time I told Oke it was a bad time for me to talk to you as I was too busy. And now Oke is too difficult to contact anymore. I heard he was in and out of hospital and extremely sensitive to stress and heart sickness. This is all very bad news. I tried calling. His wife Linda takes messages, but none were returned. She obviously doesn't want much on Oke's plate for fear of his health. Regarding your request - I will think on it. Three years have passed and I am retiring. I left the DIA in July and have been replaced by Admiral Jacoby. I recently went to the test site special area to wrap up projects I had begun in 1998. My successor can't be bothered with this right now for lack of time and knowledge. I did a tour, audit and to say goodbye to folks. The trip was set up by the NNSA (National Nuclear Security Agency) - Rich and Doug - you know them. They are AFIO (Association of Former Intelligence Officers) members. I was told about how the new Las Vegas chapter needed guest speakers for chapter and public venue money raising and membership drive activities. Rich and Doug talked about you. They phoned me from DC, sent me copies of your NASA papers and other related items - I see that wormholes are your thing. They also sent copies of PACAF orders, US ID, Lockheed slides, and some reports you wrote for NASA."

"When was this?" I asked.

"In September, after Labor Day. Rich and Doug told me I should talk to you about DIA careers, discuss its history and mission, and my career in that, etc. Later I knew better when I saw your papers and the stats they provided. I also remembered Oke's phone call and what he sent me, plus what he said about you."

"What did you do with all that information?"

"I had my office do background checks. Doug and Rich offered to do that, but I wanted my own data to be sure. AFIO vouched for you. AFIO people and DC people now in Vegas also vouched for you. I gave deep serious thought to this, and recalled Oke's call in 1999. Oke really supported you, and he had good arguments."

"What were they?"

"That you wouldn't talk to the press, to groups (UFO or other such), had no media connections, would not talk to Will Miller or Steven Greer or related folks, and had no vested interest in publicity, money, fame or notoriety."

We then spent time discussing my background - I answered his questions on my AF (Air Force), NASA and related work and interests, specifically my history with AF jobs and precisely what I did. We also talked about my education and career choice. To my surprise there was no mention of NIDS!! Oke had mentioned JA, me and NIDS in 1999, but that's all that was said.

"I'm very furious and very angry about Miller", Wilson said, his facial expression tense, his voice angry. "He violated my personal and professional trust, especially among intelligence colleagues and Navy officers. There's Navy camaraderie among officers - a brotherhood. He violated that and confidentiality."

"How?" I asked.

"Miller told Greer of his conversation with me," Wilson replied. "Who knows whom else he and Greer told."

Miller also told Ed Mitchell, who went on to tell me in 1999, as I was part of the NIDS group.

"Then Miller talked to journalist J. Kean and the Boston Globe articles came out. I am not sure what he told Kean, but the articles referenced me. I was FURIOUS! I received phone calls from all over."

"What was their nature?" I asked.

"Sarcastic, stupid jokes, stupid comments, comments of surprise and derision that I would be talking to UFO nuts and nutty UFO groups."

"By who?" I asked.

"Co-workers such as flag officers in the Pentagon, lower staff, civilian SES people, people in the intel community that I work with. I got calls about those articles and didn't like it. In fact, I'm taking a risk talking to you. But I trust Oke's word and it is good with me. I think we should have met Oke together, face-to-face, but his present health problems prevent that, and it's too bad! So I'll take a risk with you. Rich & Doug vouched for you. They said your word is good with them. The AFIO connection is also important for trust. You obviously know how to be a team player. The background check was clear - there were no derogatory items found. Your Korean record is good and the Air Force trusts you."

"I'm running out of time, so let's go with this! If you blow my trust I'll deny meeting you and I'll deny everything that was said. I won't meet with any more people without clearances to talk about this topic, as it is too risky because of security violation just by mentioning it. This is very tightly held information, and an absurdly closely held subject matter. I have never seen anything like this program in the black programs community."

"Okay then, what happened in April - June 1997?" I asked.

"After parting with Miller, a week later, I think, I made calls, knocked on a few doors and talked to people. This went on for 45 days, or thereabouts, on and off. A suggestion came from General Ward to go through the records groups files. This is like an index system in OUSDAT, which is the Office of the Under Secretary of Defense for Acquisition and Technology. I also ran into Bill Perry in May 1997 and quietly talked about this with him. He suggested the same thing. They both told me of a special projects record group not belonging to the usual SAP (Special Access Program). It was a special subset of the unacknowledged carve-outs and waived programs not belonging to usual SAP divisions as organized in 1994 by Perry himself. They were set apart from the rest but buried within, or covered by, conventional SAPs.

"Who was USDAT?" I asked.

"It was Paul Kaminski. I talked to both Paul and Mike Kostelnik, a Brigadier General," said Wilson.

"You spoke with Michael Kostelnik?" I asked.

"Yes. In Paul's office at OUSDAT. He was the Director of Special Programs in the OUSDAT, as organized, or re-organized, by Perry in 1994. Mike is also director of the SAPCO (Special Access Programs Coordination Office) and a member and executive secretary to the SAPOC (Special Access Programs Oversight Committee) in a capacity as SAPCO director. Mike is also a member of the Senior Review Group (SRG)."

At the time Admiral Wilson was Deputy Director of the Defence Intelligence Agency and Assistant Joint Chief of Staff - referred to as J-2. His boss was Director of the Defence Intelligence Agency, General Patrick Hughes.

"So I found the unusual record group and read the index abstracts," said Wilson.

"Was it budget information? I asked.

"No. There was no budget information," said Wilson. "That is kept in separate records for audit purposes. A security budget record is copied into a folder for "the program." I talked to Mike who said it was like 2-3 times the program budget, but there were times when it went as high as 6-7 times the core budget. He thought it was absurdly high, and said Perry wanted an investigation on that, but was told to drop it."

"Who told him that?" I asked.

"Mike didn't want to answer my question on that. He said I could find out something from Judy Daly, who was the Assistant Deputy Under Secretary of Defense for Advanced Development at the OUSDAT. I rang her and she said that security and other program budget records were being re-vamped and relocated to their own records groups. Security budgets were sometimes cumulative and not annual numbers. So it was easy to see how a misunderstanding occurs when comparing to annual program budget figures. 6-7 times could be 2-5 years cumulative total. There have been errors in the way security budgets are reported. Perry ordered all these issues to be reorganized and straightened out to improve audit transparency."

"So what SAP compartment did you find the information in?" I asked.

"That's a core secret, so I won't say," answered Wilson

"Can you give me the code name?" I asked.

"Again, I won't say, as it is a core secret," responded Wilson.

"Who was the project contractor or USG agency that runs program?" I inquired.

"An aerospace technology contractor - one of the top ones in US," Wilson said.

"Who?" I asked.

"Core secret - can't tell," said Wilson.

"A Defense contractor?" I asked.

"Yes, the best one of them," said Wilson.

"Intelligence too?" I responded.

"Yes. In their corporate portfolio," Wilson came back.

"Can you give me a hint?" I asked.

"Sorry, no," said Wilson.

[Comment by the editor: The contractor in 1997 could possibly have been The BDM Corporation, or Northrop Grumman, though there are many other possibilities as these deep black programs are highly compartmentalised and spread across a number of public and private corporations and entities, such as the two aforementioned, and Boeing.]

"What happened when you found the contractor?" I asked.

"I made several calls at the end of May 1997. First to Paul, Mike & Perry to confirm I had the right contractor and program manager to talk to," responded Wilson.

"They confirmed?" I asked.

"Yes," said Wilson.

"What happened then?" I inquired.

"At the end of May 1997 I made three calls to the program manager," said Wilson. "One of them was a conference call, with the security director and corporate attorney also in attendance. There was confusion on their part as to why I was looking for them and what I wanted from them or wanted to know about. There was a very testy tone from all of them."

"What do you mean?" I asked.

"They were agitated about my calling, and they were surprised by the call," said Wilson.

"Agitated and surprised by what you asked them?" I responded.

"Yes," said Wilson.

"What was it that you said - what words?" I asked.

"I told them I read their program record in the OUSDAT special program records group and wanted to know about their crashed UFO program, what their role in that was, what they had, etc. I also asked if they has heard of MJ-12 or some other such organization code relating to crashed/recovered UFO craft," answered Wilson.

"What was their reaction on the phone to that?" I asked.

"Yes!", said Wilson. "They then asked me who I talked to before I called them. So I told them and they weren't happy with that answer."

"You mean about speaking with Perry, Paul and Mike?" I asked.

"Oh, no! I didn't tell them I talked to those guys!" Wilson responded.

"Whom else had you talked to?" I asked.

"There were the other program managers that I called," said Wilson.

"You didn't mention that before!" I responded.

"I thought I said something," said Wilson.

"Who were they?" I asked.

"There were three programs / program managers who said they weren't what/who I was looking for. There was also four programs / program managers that referred me back to the present threesome," said Wilson.

"Why the latter?" I asked.

"Because they were part of it, though in different compartments, placed in different layers of the compartments pyramid, split up to do different things or parts of it," said Wilson. "They are all in the same records group, but their connection to each other is not obvious. This is a typical thing for such groups, but unusual in records."

"What happened then?" I asked.

"I told the threesome that I wanted a formal briefing and tour," said Wilson. "I was exploiting my regulatory authority as Deputy Director DIA/Assistant Joint Chief of Staff J-2. I told them that my not being briefed was an oversight that they needed to correct. In fact, I demanded it! They told me that they needed to discuss this demand. So they hung up. I got called 2 days later and they said they did not want to talk on the phone and therefore arranged for a face-to-face meeting at their facility."

"Did you go?" I asked.

"Yes, ten days later," said Wilson. "It was mid-June or so. I flew out there and met in their conference room, in their secure vault. Three of them showed up."

"The three guys with whom you had the previous teleconference?" I asked him.

"Yes, the same three - the Security Director (NSA-retired, a CI expert), the Program Director, and the Corporate Attorney. They called themselves "The Watch Committee," or Gate keepers," said Wilson.

"Why that phrase or name?" I asked.

"I also asked them," said Wilson. "They said they were formed out of necessity to protect themselves after a near disaster in the past almost blew their cover. It was something to do with an agreement that was reached with a couple of Pentagon SESS overseeing SAPs in those days. They were vague about when that was."

"What was this?" I interjected.

"Let me finish!" said Wilson. "They said that years ago, in the past, an audit investigation led to them, and it wasn't supposed to. They were nearly outed! A battle then took place - a nasty back 'n forth between them and the audit investigator and his Pentagon chief ensued. It was like a tug of war for program transparency, they told me. Money was the issue, and their hiding out became the other issue. There was some kind of threat leveled to blow the lid off them, so they backed down and let the investigator in to complete his job. It is obvious that they work very hard to keep the program hidden."

"What happened with the investigator?" I asked.

"He was officially briefed, given a tour, and shown their program," said Wilson.

"Did they show him a craft, or hardware they said was "alien" or from a UFO?" I asked.

"They didn't say anymore about that," said Wilson. "They said that after that episode a formal agreement was struck with Pentagon people (SAPOC) to prevent this happening again in the future. They did not want a repeat. Special criteria were therefore established in the agreement: (1) A special circumstance that must meet rigorous access criteria would be set by the contractor committee. (2) No USG (Department of Defence) personnel were to gain access unless they met the criteria. (3) Access was to be administered by the Contractor Committee, comprising the program director, the corporate attorney and the security director. (4) Access would be granted or denied by the Contractor Committee, irregardless of the tickets and position USG personnel possessed. Literally it was their way or the highway."

"What are the criteria?" I inquired.

"I asked for that and they refused to give an answer," said Wilson. "I was mad as the implication was now clear to me that they operate without official oversight or any justification. This is politically a dangerous place to be! The threesome were now concerned with whom I had talked to at Pentagon, or elsewhere, by phone, FAX or email. They wanted complete accounting of all my conversations as they were concerned about new exposure. The purpose of the meeting was to tell me this."

"Tell you what?" I asked.

"That they weren't going to let me in the door," answered Wilson.

"Why not?" I asked.

"They said my tickets were all confirmed and valid, but I was not on the Bigot List," said Wilson. "My tickets alone were not enough. I did not meet the special criteria, so need to know authorization was not being granted. I went back 'n forth with them over these points, primarily with the security director and the corporate attorney. I argued more, but they would not accept my arguments that they fell under my statutory oversight and regulatory authority as Deputy Director DIA. They would not accept this under purview for my right to have need to know authorisation, which entailed oversight, audit, justification issues, etc., etc. Regulatory and statutory authority as Deputy Director DIA was apparently not relevant or pertinent to the nature of their program! Then they pulled out their Bigot List to convince me otherwise. It was several pages long, originally dated 1990, but updated to 1993."

"Who was on it?" I asked. "Did you recognize any names?"

"That is core secret," said Wilson. "Though I am willing to say that most were program employees - the names and titles (job titles) were given. They were civilians and I didn't recognize any military personnel, though they could be there."

"Any politicians?" I asked.

"No. No White House names, no President! No Congressional people. No Congressional staffers," said Wilson.

"Any in the Clinton or Bush Sr. administrations?" I wondered.

"No!" said Wilson emphatically. "But a handful of names were Pentagon individuals I recognized - there were a few from OUSDAT, one from another department, another at the NSC who is a Pentagon SES employee. The Program Manager said they were: (1) Not any weapons program, (2) Not any intelligence program, (3) Not any special ops or logistics program, and (4) Doesn't fit these categories. I asked what they were then. There was a loud groan from the Program Manager. In turn, the Security Director and Corporate Attorney said that it was okay to say it."

"Say what?" I asked.

"That they were a reverse engineering program, working on something recovered years ago, in the past," said Wilson. "They were working on technological hardware that was recovered. So I thought they meant recovered Soviet, Chinese, or other foreign hardware, and reverse engineering it, such as a missile or intell platform or aircraft. I actually came to the meeting expecting to find a sensitive foreign collection and reverse engineering operation. I thought "UFOs" was being used as a cover for that. So I said that, and they said they weren't that either. The Program Manager said they had a craft - an intact craft they believed could fly. I asked: Through space? air? water? What were its dimensions? Was it from overseas or not? He answered the last question with an emphatic NO! It could not be - it was not possible!! Why, I asked - where did it come from? The Program Manager said they didn't know where it was from, though they had some ideas on this. It was technology that was not of this Earth - not made by man - not by human hands. They said they were trying to understand and exploit the technology. Their program had been going on for years and years with very slow progress. It was agonizingly slow, with little or no success. There was a painful lack of collaboration as they were not able, or allowed, to get help from the outside, international community of experts and facilities to assist their effort. They must remain isolated and use their own facilities and cleared personnel. As such, it was a tough environment to work in. There were only about 400-800 (Bigot List count) workers, varying in number with funding or personnel changes. I then asked some of the questions I had discussed with Miller: (1) What of the Roswell craft / bodies / autopsies; (2) the Holloman Air Force Base Landing; (3) MJ-12 and leaked docs; and (4) the Zamora & Bentwaters incidents, etc. They were mum and declined to discuss any of these. I then threatened to go to SAPOC and complain, in order to gain access to their program. They said go ahead and do what you must. By this stage I was quite angry because they defied my authority to be read-in with good logical reason. They would not budge. Their tone was very testy/terse throughout the conversation.

"What was the eventual outcome?" I asked.

"The meeting broke up and I returned to Washington," said Wilson.

"What about Corso?" I said.

"Greer had talked about Corso at the meeting on April 9th. Miller showed me the book The Day After Roswell during our two-hour private conversation, but I didn't have time to read it through and I didn't buy a copy. I also did not bring Corso up at the meeting. But comparing the Corso story to what I learned at that meeting is more than enough to make me believe that Corso told the truth about seeing "alien" hardware, etc."

"Did you complain to SAPOC?" I asked.

"Yes. I called the subgroup members - Senior Review Group members - to a meeting at the Pentagon. At that meeting I told them what had happened at the Program Committee meeting.They responded that they would sustain, or support, the contractor on their access denial. So I ended up arguing with them a while. The meeting broke up after 20 minutes and they said they would meet me again in 2-3 days time. I then got the call 2 days later, near end of June, and met again with Senior Review Group members."

"Precisely when?" I asked.

"Before the last week of June 1997," said Wilson. "They told me that they were sustaining the contractor, that I was to immediately drop the matter and let it go. I should forget about it as I did not have purview over their project, and it did not fall within my oversight, etc. I became very angry and started yelling, when I should have just kept my mouth shut."

"Miller and Greer said that you nearly got busted," I responded.

"Close to that!" said Wilson. "I told Miller that the Senior Review Group chairman said that if I didn't follow their suggestion I would not see the Director DIA promotion, I would be forced in early retirement, and lose 1 or 2 stars along the way. I was really incredibly angry and upset over this. I was livid!!! Why was there such a big deal over this, considering the position of trust I have in the Pentagon. I do have relevant regulatory and statutory authority over their program. That's my position!!!"

"Is it because funding comes from you or through you? Or the Director of the Defence Intelligence Agency?" I asked.

"Core secret. I can't answer that," Wilson replied.

"Getting back to the Bigot List - can you describe the type of people therein?" I asked.

"Mainly corporate types - scientists and technicians, engineers, scientists, managers, etc.," said Wilson.

"Were there any military organizations you recognized?" I asked.

"None," responded Wilson. "Just OUSDAT people, two on SAPOC, and one other from a Pentagon office. In December 1997 Paul was out as USDAT. He left government. So was Mike K. He was replaced too."

"By whom?" I asked.

"Jacques Gansler was the new USDAT," said Wilson. "He started in December 1997, and Mike K. was replaced by Brig. General M. Ward (Air Force)."

"Were Paul K. and Mike K. and Jacques Gansler and General Ward the ones on the Bigot List you recognized" I asked.

"I won't answer that," said Wilson. "I talked to Gansler in January 1998 about my June 1997 meetings. He had already been briefed by someone! This surprised me."

"What did he say?" I asked.

"He said to me, UFOs are real, and so-called 'alien abductions' are not real," said Wilson.

"What else did he say?" I asked.

"He told me to drop the matter, as there would be no more discussion about it. Gansler said this to me," said Wilson.

"Are you willing to talk to Hal Puthoff and Kit Green?," I asked Wilson

We discussed who they are, and the Remote Vision program history.

"I am not familiar with those names," said Wilson. "I heard about the RV program in 1990. Maybe/maybe not for Hal. I will think about it."

There was no response in regard to Kit Green.

"I prefer to never to talk to anyone else about this again. It risks exposure and it is better to stop talking and cut it off here," said Wilson.

"What will you do with all this information?" he asked me.

"I will keep it for my private/personal research data collection to track down the story and ascertain signal/noise in media and from government sources," I said. "I will keep my mouth shut, etc., as previously discussed."

I then told Wilson about Mary Elizabeth Elliot, the TRW story, Ingo's story and about the 1974 remote viewer woman who went to WPAFB. I was trying to make connection. Wilson provided some feedback to this.

"Mary Elliot sounds like the real deal based on her information and behavior with attorney Jeffrey W. Griffith. She probably will only come totally clean on her deathbed, 30 years from now. I don't know about Ingo, Axelrod, or the remote viewer woman at WPAFB. I don't have any information on their stories from my sources. I would be grateful if you could send me some of the Corso material, though. I would also like a briefing book on your work for NASA and the AFRL. You can send other papers if you want to my office address in D.C., but I will retire to the Midwest and close my office in 2003."

--------------------

5. References

BDM in Admiral Wilson Memo, Reddit, 2022.

Davis, Eric W. and Franklin B. Mead Jr., Review of Laser Lightcraft Propulsion System, 5th International Symposium on Beamed Energy Propulsion, 12 - 15 November 2007, Keahou Beach Resort, Hawaii.

Eric Davis Meeting with Admiral Wilson [pdf], congress.gov, United States Congress, no date, 19p.

Greer, Steven, Hidden Truth: Forbidden Knowledge, Crossing Point, 2006, 325p. Contains reference to his meeting with Admiral Wilson in April 1997.

Myrabo, L.N., Advanced beam-energy and field propulsion concepts, BDM Corporation, Maclean, Virginia, 31 May 1983, 525p. Report for California Institute of Technology and Jet Propulsion Laboratory and NASA. [PDF]

Schnabel, Jim, Tinker, Taylor, Soldier, PSI, The Independent, 26 August 1995.

Tingley, Brett, Blasting the air in front of hypersonic vehicles with lasers could unlock unprecedented speeds, The Warzone, 27 November 2020.

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Last updated: 29 January 2024

Michael Organ, Australia (Home)

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